Gas or Diesel? A Follow Up.

More detailed information on the boats in response to a readers questions 

 Diesel boat details are as follows:
1- Twin Cummins Diamond  Series Inboard 8400 with diesel generator
2-  Vessel weight 28495 lbs
3- 799 hrs

Boat had 1/2 Tank of fuel when departing, and was empty of all but safety gear, no water and pumped out.

Gas boat details
1-Twin 8.1  Crusader motors with gas generator
2-Vessel weight 27495 lbs
3- 65 hours

Boat had 1/2 tank of fuel when departing and was empty of all but safety gear, no water and pumped out

Both boats where side by side when they left and arrived the same way, this was a rare occasion where the two boats where ran side by side all the way. The gas boat set the pace at 4500 RPM.and the diesel matched the pace. The price per gallon of fuel was not critical to the discussion, as we were not trying to determine gallons per hour of fuel burn. It was a general note that the a diesels cruising range based on the same amount of fuel far exceeds gas, as the diesel burnt just about half of the gas boat period. These two boats are rigged with identical size single center mounted fuel tanks.

Water line difference question:

One of the questions was in regard to water line at the dock with no one on board it is obvious that there is a difference as the diesel boat weight is 1000 lbs more than the gas boat.

Does the diesel motor work as hard as the gas motor:

No diesel motors do not the gas motor develops a huge amount of torque when pulling through the RPM range yes, but does not maintain the torque  and hp at the prop any were near were a diesel motor does. Diesels love to be under a constant load.  All boats have hull speed limitations that are available, if you are hitting the max RPM well before the recognized hull speed then you may have the wrong prop package on the boat. That is not the case in this comparison.

What Does it mean when you say diesels are not affected by boat load as gas motors do:

This is in reference to the fact that many times on a boat this size you will add a tender on a bracket of one type or another and the fact is the diesel will not hardly be affected. A gas motor will feel the load difference. Every boat in Canada has a load capacity plate do you know where it is on your boat, if you ignore this plate load limit it will affect any boat with any power plant not just due to motor lag but the hull design can be affected which is a safety issue, so Know your load limit and stay within it. One of the ways to know the true boat weight is at the travel lift most boat owners do not ask the weight of the boat when hauled out.


These boats were brought up to RPM and left there for four hours, and the diesel did need a service, Had it have had the service the smoke may have been reduced however it would have burned cleaner and got better fuel burn. Not all diesels are smokey and smelly as many have under water exhaust this is why I stated that the exhaust set up on this particular boat is poor, but if you think that a diesel has no odor at an idle at the dock you are wrong. Out on the lake or in the open the exhaust can escape away, but against a dock in that trapped space they smell. You know when a diesel starts and is idling if it is backed into the dock which is the way 99 percent of the boats that I attend are moored.


This was a comparison done of two identical boats from the same manufacturer out of the same factory, all original no modifications, Boat Nut Media could get out of control with prop sizes and pitches and wet load weight, but that is not our goal. We try to provide information that is based on facts the way we see the boats and the way they run. This is the way the manufacturer delivered them and that is what boaters really have to deal with.

You can always break a boats running information down into a significant amount of detail, but at the end of the day the boat will do what it is going to do, and I tell it as I see it not every one will like it or agree with it.

Original response from one of our readers:

I only know what I have seen in diesel boats and what I have been involved with on discussion boards such as this.
This is one of the most common ways leading to people ruining their diesels.....
"The last benefit to a diesel is they do not seem to care what you load on your boat they seem to perform pretty much the same way with or without the tender and all your gear on board"
they load the boat heavily over time and overload the diesel engines.
And this way as well....
"This makes for a much smoother ride in the diesel as the running gear is larger you just do not feel like you are pushing the diesel hard at all."
They feel like the diesel are not working hard so they run them to fats and way to near their max rpm's when over propped.
"Both boats were ran side by side down the lake for four hours on plain. The gas boat burnt $400.00 worth of fuel and the diesel burned approximately half of that $220.00."
This tells us nothing about fuel burn rates as fuel prices are different in various places. around here the price of gas is typically 10-15% more than diesel fuel at marina docks. The 41 Silverton we cruise with typically gets about 0.5 nmpg at its cruise of 15-16 knots burning over 30 gph at those speeds.
"So the weight difference is mainly in the motors themselves. However we will say the gas boat sits approximately two inches higher than the diesel boat at the water line."
There is no way to know which diesels are in this boat but we know they do weigh more - even if they weigh a combined 1,000#'s more than the big block gas engines there is something really wrong with a 2" difference in hull height. As a comparison I can take on 400 Gallons of fuel and 200 gallons of water and that only affects my height be about 1" (about 4,500#'s). What 41" boat goes down 2" at the water line when 6 adults or so have boarded?
" At an idle at the dock the diesel can be dirty and smelly, as a matter of fact other boaters were not happy with long term idling"
We have commonly been on raft-up where more than half a dozen larger diesel gensets were running and there was no noticeable smell.
Similarly when the boats come in to tie up and the mains are running (various brands) there is very little noticeable smell.
I am guessing there are some other issues with each of these boats which may affect comparisons of individual differences. Engine condition, prop sizing, prop and running gear condition and boat loading all can make a very large difference. Running any side by side comparison is hard even wen you know the boats engines are well tuned and each boat is evenly loaded and in good shape.
Hope this helps

Thanks again for the comments they are great. Again I am not an expert but I would ask the following:they load the boat heavily over time and overload the diesel engines. Is this overloading only an issue with diesel owners or is this more of a problem of boater education ?They feel like the diesel are not working hard so they run them to fats and way to near their max rpm's when over propped. Same question as above. Does this really invalidate the comparison or is this more an issue of boater education ?
]This tells us nothing about fuel burn rates as fuel prices are different in various places. around here the price of gas is typically 10-15% more than diesel fuel at marina docks. The 41 Silverton we cruise with typically gets about 0.5 nmpg at its cruise of 15-16 knots burning over 30 gph at those speeds. Since the claimed fuel consumption is about 50% less to travel at the same speed and distance does it really matter what the cost of the fuel was. What if the test was done when the prices were exactly the same ?There is no way to know which diesels are in this boat but we know they do weigh more - even if they weigh a combined 1,000#'s more than the big block gas engines there is something really wrong with a 2" difference in hull height. As a comparison I can take on 400 Gallons of fuel and 200 gallons of water and that only affects my height be about 1" (about 4,500#'s). What 41" boat goes down 2" at the water line when 6 adults or so have boarded? A good observation and you are right more information would have been good. But the same question. Does this invalidate the comparison ?We have commonly been on raft-up where more than half a dozen larger diesel gensets were running and there was no noticeable smell.
Similarly when the boats come in to tie up and the mains are running (various brands) there is very little noticeable smell.
I am guessing there are some other issues with each of these boats which may affect comparisons of individual differences. Engine condition, prop sizing, prop and running gear condition and boat loading all can make a very large difference. Running any side by side comparison is hard even wen you know the boats engines are well tuned and each boat is evenly loaded and in good shape. I guess everyone has their own experience's in terms of the smell of diesel boats. But you make a very valid point that if they are not properly cared for the issue can be much worse.

We would like to thank our readers for their comments and questions, as this is exactly what we were hoping for. We wanted other boaters, technicians, and manufacturers to voice their opinions, and share their experiences. After all we are a boating community and should all have a voice in it. We are simply trying to bring the BOAT NUTS together.

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Copyright 2015 © Boat Nut Media, Toronto, Ontario. All rights reserved. No part of this information/publications may be stored in a retrieval system, transmitted, or reproduced in any way, including but not limited to photocopy, magnetic, or other record, without prior agreement and written permission of the publisher, Boat Nuts Media ©™ No liability is assumed with respect to the information provided.

Gas or Diesel, whats the better fit for you?

                                                   

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Gas or Diesel the age old question when buying a yacht?

Identical 410's

Gas- Tan Canvas (Top) Diesel- Black Canvas (Bottom)



Boat Nut Media had a chance last fall to run identical 410 Silverton Sport Bridge Yachts one with twin big block gas motors and the other with a pair of cat diesels, so what were the differences? Does it make a difference when you are puttering along or cruising long distances, the answer is it does.

 The gas boat is powered with two big block 454 ci low hour motors, and is set up virtually identical to the diesel boat. The only difference is a washer dryer in the gas boat, which is countered in the diesel boat with an automatic shore power cord system, So the weight difference is mainly in the motors themselves. However we will say the gas boat sits approximately two inches higher than the diesel boat at the water line.

Both boats were ran side by side down the lake for four hours on plain. The gas boat burnt $400.00 worth of fuel and the diesel burned approximately half of that $220.00. The boats were evenly matched for speed as a matter of fact the diesel boat could out run the gas boat if you pushed the throttle down and let the boats go. Why is this ? Well the gas boats props are at least 3 inches smaller in diameter, and the shafts on the diesel are a half an inch larger. This makes for a much smoother ride in the diesel as the running gear is larger you just do not feel like you are pushing the diesel hard at all. The diesel motors run at least 1700 RPM less at high speed than the gas motors.

I must say the extra weight of the diesel motors make the ride very stable overall, boat movement is reduced. The gas boat has more transom lift this would be due to weight and the extended RPM range this 1700 RPM is translated into more water at higher speed passing the props thus creating more transom lift. Transom lift creates more roll from front to back in the gas boat than the diesel boat. The diesel boat just punches a big hole through the water it provides the same bow rise it just squats in the water at the aft. Thus creating a much larger wake out the back

When departing the dock the diesel has substantially more push and more positive low speed control by the shifter's, this is directly related to the size of the props. Idle speed is also much faster with the diesel for the same reason, there is a larger volume of water passing the diesel boats props. The gas boat is also very manageable as well, but the reaction time from shift to movement is much tamer and slower. The gas boat will require more corrections for side wind or current. The first time you shift the diesel you may feel a little intimidated as it moves right away and quick. Neither one of these boats are equipped with thrusters so all docking moves must be made with the motors. When docking the gas boats gives you more reaction time to prepare for movement which can be a real plus for first time boaters, however this can bite you if you have an off the dock wind or current. At an idle at the dock the diesel can be dirty and smelly, as a matter of fact other boaters were not happy with long term idling . This though was partly due to the diesel motors requiring a general service. Although even with optimum fuel burn a diesel is a smelly proposition backed into the dock. This becomes worse in a diesel if you have the generator running also. On this model boat running the generator would probably all but eliminate the ability of sitting in the back cockpit or keeping the large sliding door open. A real draw back while at anchor. The gas does not seem to have this same effect on the usage of the aft deck or cabin door.

When it comes to service these two boats are likely very close in maintenance costs, however if you had a starter or alternator go out the diesel, it would punch a hole in your wallet. Serious breakdowns will cost more with a diesel. Do not let this sway your decision making if a diesel receives regular run hours and correct maintenance then they will out last the gas motors two to one. The other upside to a diesel is there are less mechanical items to fail you there are no spark plugs no wires and no ignition system.

I believe that the choice between gas and diesel comes down to running hours and and what performance you are looking for in a larger boat. A gas boat is ideal if you are not putting on a lot of hours and not going far, in other words a floating cottage. If you had a diesel in these conditions it would cost you more to keep it running, diesels need to run they do not do well sitting around they are more difficult to get running if they do not see time then gas engines. If you are an avid traveler and cruise your boat all the time and like to go distances than buy a diesel the fuel burn rate will give you extended range and they love to run under load for days at a time. You have to take a look at how you are going to use the boat, access to fuel, the cost of fuel, can you get service on a reliable basis and how fast you want to get there, I must say a good diesel turbo set up will blow the doors of a gas boat the same size all day. The last benefit to a diesel is they do not seem to care what you load on your boat they seem to perform pretty much the same way with or without the tender and all your gear on board, where you will surely notice the difference with gas motors they just do not develop he same torque, and torque is push!

To guarantee access to all of  Boat Nut Magazine articles, pictures and featured services visit the official Boat Nut Magazine ©™ website. Be sure to reply to the Boat Nut Association registration on our site for the latest Boat Nut weekly and monthly news letters and opportunities.

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Copyright 2015 © Boat Nut Media, Toronto, Ontario. All rights reserved. No part of this information/publications may be stored in a retrieval system, transmitted, or reproduced in any way, including but not limited to photocopy, magnetic, or other record, without prior agreement and written permission of the publisher, Boat Nuts Media ©™ No liability is assumed with respect to the information provided.

WHAT TO CONSIDER WHEN BUYING A USED BOAT

                                                             

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WHAT TO CONSIDER WHEN BUYING A USED BOAT 

Easy Tips To Follow

How do I buy the right used boat for my use? Do you know were I can get a deal?, These are the most common questions anyone in the marine service industry gets asked. I have read many advise articles on this topic over the years, most of them are written by persons who are in boat sales or prepared by a boat manufacturer. This is not the case with what you are about to read.

I have had 30 plus years to think of how I would answer these questions. There is a whole host of considerations that need to be addressed before you even think about the boat itself. The first consideration is the plan you have to use and store the boat. Are you going to keep the boat in one location such as, your cottage, a marina, your driveway, or in a storage facility some were. This may seem like an odd first question but it is important. Each one of these answers has specific limitations or costs associated with it. You need to consider the cost of ownership over and above the purchase price of the boat you love. It seems a lot of new boat owners have very limited knowledge of the annual cost of ownership and the complications that boat ownership can create.

If you are considering a trailer boat so you can take the boat with you from one location to another for sport fishing, water skiing, or you may just enjoy seeing and experiencing different bodies of water across the province. Then if this is your choice here are some considerations you need to give to your boat purchase. First do you have an appropriate tow vehicle for the size of boat you want to buy or do you need to keep the boat inside the towing limitations of your current tow vehicle. Are you allowed to store your vessel at home in your driveway or do you need to rent a location to store the boat. This may restrict the size of boat you are able to buy. Remember the distances you plan to tow your boat will dictate the type of trailer you will need to have under the boat and the trailer can add several feet to the length of area you will need to have available for storage.

If you are purchasing a boat to have at your cottage or home on the water, this presents other concerns you need to plan for. What is the depth of the water you have available at your dock, and how long is your dock. Will you be prepared to spend the money to change your dock if necessary. Are there any restrictions on horse power or noise. Do you have facilities were you can go for waste pump outs and gas. What is the nature of the body of water you are using, can it get nasty in bad weather, does the lake have a rocky bottom, is it well marked or hard to navigate, is it common for  boats to hit the bottom or hit hidden debris, where can you launch the boat. You may only have access to a shallow ramp or a beach front.  

If you have selected a marina or yacht club you want to belong to, you must find out what slips are available. Do not buy a boat and assume that your choice of marina will be able to facilitate your boat some marinas have waiting lists for slips. Look at the slip set up and make sure that the boat you purchase will fit. If the boat is wide in beam or to long you will be afraid to take the boat out of the slip, you need to have a comfortable slip to get in and out of. Be sure they have the required facilities your boat will require need such as dockside water and appropriate shore power plug (You may require more than 1 30 amp plug). Know the costs of mooring your boat ,some marinas will charge by length over all and others will charge by the length of the slip do not calculate the cost by the length that the manufacturer places on the boat (an example of this is a 2855 Bayliner is 33 feet length over all). Make sure you can accommodate your extra boating requirements such as storage, BBQ or other on the water toys that you may add to your fleet, such as a tender or a jet ski.

All of the above considerations will cost you money over and above the boat, these costs can pile up and this does not include insurance. If you are not prepared you may have your boat for sale after the first season. I have seen these costs drive out a new boater.

Now lets talk the boat! The biggest consideration for your boat is the budget. Have you ever driven or spent much time on a variety of boats and why are you buying a boat?  How large will your immediate crew be? do you have pets? any crew members with physical restrictions? Is the boat for a weekend cottage or do you plan to get out on the water? Are you a family or person who enjoys camping or will you be a day boater only? It is popular to have a boat for corporate use were you will be entertaining guests? Do you have friends with boats and are you planning to spend a lot of time at and on the boat? Does this boat purchase have to satisfy many personalities and expectations you must be realistic and able to satisfy all the persons who will be spending time on the boat other wise you will be boating alone or selling the boat. Boating is a great way to spend time with friends and family however this only works when you have found the right boat.

These are a lot of questions the more time you spend answering these questions the happier you will be with your choice.

Once you have selected the size of boat and the style (Cruiser, Fishing Boat etc.) of boat you will be shopping for we can then put together a list of things to look for to determine if the boat has been well maintained. We will divide the assessment of the boat into three areas the boat itself which is the structure, the systems which are all the accessories and items added to the boat and motors the propulsion system that gets you through the water. It really doesn't matter the size of the boat when it comes to the structure the same rule of thumb applies. There is the hull, the deck and the internal structure of the boat (stringers and the bulkheads). The hull of the boat is reasonably straight forward.  Always inspect the boat out of the water. Never assume that because the top side of the boat is fantastic that the same goes for the bottom. If you are buying a boat that will be living on the trailer  all the time you are not using it then there are some boats you can immediately knock off the list. The first boat off the list is any boat with bottom paint, this bottom paint will become an unnecessary hassle for you as it will dry up and flake of leaving the boat looking nasty. You will then have to repaint for no reason a waste of money. The next boat to be weary of are boats with painted hulls, the paint can hide a world of damage also paint is not designed to live most of its life underwater.I would not buy a painted hull boat., they are more expensive to fix All boats will get some degree of dock damage. However there are exceptions to every rule, some boats only come factory painted.  These are boats such as a Donzi, Chris Craft and large yachts you can rest assured these are fine, you just need to remember the cost of repair if this is your first boat. Other places to look for use and abuse is along the keel of the boat, and at the transom corners, over and above the normal wear and tear of docks and fenders the keel and the two back corners take the most abuse. What you are looking for is gel coat damage or damage that has been patched up (if the back corners are damaged this could be a sign of a hard boat to handle in reverse). Gel coat repair is generally not hard to spot you look for either areas that don't match in color, are too shiny(a sign of a paint repair) or to dull (indicates old repair area). Some of the other signs of damage are patched up hull graphics or no hull graphics at all.  If all of the factory graphics and logos are gone the boat has probably had repaired damage, these graphics are expensive to purchase and apply and are not always available.

The deck of  a boat can have all of the same issues finish issues as the hull. When it comes to the deck there are obviously a lot more items that will have to be checked over. You will need to check over all the hatches on the deck that are part of the original deck (motor, storage, anchor locker).Open them all up and check the inside for cracks inside of the lids. older hatches could have long cracks across them and newer style hatches that are mold finished inside will develop cracks around the inside edges. These cracks are a sign that the core is wet. Verify the hatches fit correctly and that the latches close when the hatches are closed. Next inspect around the rails and mounted hardware for sealant that has been added after the boat was assembled. This includes around the windshield area. Any build up of sealant is a sure sign that there are leaks in this area which have likely been getting inside the boat. Look over the sides of the deck above the deck and hull joint for cracks in the gel coat. The areas under the cleats are were stress will show up the most, this is a sign that the boat has been in some really bad weather and the cleats have been stressed. If the boat has an arch or a hard top, get up and take a look on top. If this area if it is clean and waxed it is a sign the boat has had genuine care, this area will also show if the boat has had electronics changed or removed usually boaters will just fill these holes on top with silicone. Check the transom door for the fit see if there are any problems with the fit or if the latches have been modified or do not work. Take your time and look over the non skid around the edges you are looking for bad mold areas were the nonskid doesn't have nice clean molded edges, these problems can also exist in the center areas of the non skid. This is a sign of air voids and lamination issues when the boat was built. If the non skid on the boat is not the same type or design all over the boat this is a bad sign this boat has had serious work done to the deck. The only acceptable time to see different non skid is when a boater has added a after market swim platform.

If you are looking at a boat that has extra items like swim platforms, radar arch, generators, hardtops added to the boat  buy an owner at some point be very careful. Boats are sensitive to center of gravity and center line load weight shifts. These are just terms to tell you that adding weight to the vessel after construction can change the performance. If you are looking at a boat that has seen extra accessories like the above list added be sure you run a boat that is an unmodified version to compare too. When you start to mess with center of gravity and load distribution you can destroy the way a boat runs you may need a ladder at the dash to see over the bow when you try to get on plain, no joke... if the boat will not get on plane without full trim tabs maximum trim and all kinds of other tricks then do not buy it.

When you assessing the motors and the mechanical's the first thing you need to check are the hours. In a car we go by mileage when we are calculating a value, in the boat industry we look at hours. A standard rule is 40 hours per year, less is fine with the correct maintenance but way less is not great. Once you start to put time on the boat it will start to cost you money, parts will break down.  Don't be afraid if there are more hours its not a bad thing it tells you the boat has been used. This means that everything likely works as you are buying from a seasoned boater. The truth is you need a mechanics opinion, you can take oil samples, hook up diagnostic computers, read spark plugs, compression checks and much more. Get an independent opinion, when you do this have the seller provide any records of maintenance. Do yourself a favor even if you love the boat, listen to your mechanic. The mechanic may break your heart. The cost associated to this service is peanuts compare to a bad motor or drive. Do not buy a boat that has a drive or engine package that were removed from the market, an example of this is Yamaha inboard outboard configuration , OMC king cobra drive, or any composite drives. You can write a book on this subject here is my suggestion find a good mechanic who will give you the straight truth good or bad have him/her be detailed do not stop at the motors and drives. Have the generator , batteries and other systems checked. I recommend a mechanical survey. Ask for the manuals that came with the boat these manuals contain serial numbers for the motors and drives. If the drives do not match just be sure that the replacements are an exact match for the factory drives this includes rotation and gear ratio. If the motor or motors have been changed unless they are brand new walk away, rebuilt marine engines have a horrible reputation for not lasting long.

The last items that can really hurt the pocket book are the canvas and upholstery. The canvas is just as it seems if it is old and crappy looking and will need to be replaced, even in a year or so get an estimate for money and time. Canvas on a large boat of 30 feet or more can easily exceed $8000.00 dollars. Upholstery can be of a similar cost be careful. There  are lots of boats for sale don't be a speed buyer.

No matter what boat you wish to buy get a mechanical survey and a condition survey, this should reduce the chances of getting a bad deal. Always make your deal based on a sea trial, if this is your first boat bring an experienced boater with you and take the boat from the slip out and back yourself if you can. DO NOT buy a boat you are afraid of and do not pick the perfect day some wind some waves. I cannot stress enough the need to understand your boat and how it works, Do not buy a highly modified boat. Buy a good clean original boat for your first boat. Your first boat will be a learning curve it usually takes owning more than one boat before a boater settles into long term ownership. I cannot advise anyone on a brand or style that's a personal choice buy what works for you. I can suggest that if it is a boat you have not seen a lot of call the manufacturer and see how many were built , go online and check with boat owners clubs or groups this is were you will get the truth about the boat your thinking of buying. This may seem like a simple list but these are the things that are the easiest and fastest to find. Any red flags walk away, always get a professional opinion, do not rely on your friend who owns a boat.

To guarantee access to all of  Boat Nut Magazine articles, pictures and featured services visit the official Boat Nut Magazine ©™ website. Be sure to reply to the Boat Nut Association registration on our site for the latest Boat Nut weekly and monthly news letters and opportunities.

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Copyright 2015 © Boat Nut Media, Toronto, Ontario. All rights reserved. No part of this information/publications may be stored in a retrieval system, transmitted, or reproduced in any way, including but not limited to photocopy, magnetic, or other record, without prior agreement and written permission of the publisher, Boat Nuts Media ©™ No liability is assumed with respect to the information provided.