HOW TO ELIMINATE WATER IN THE GAS TANK Pt 2

 

HOW TO ELIMINATE WATER IN THE GAS TANK  Pt 2

Any work on a fuel system requires the upmost of care and concern for safety. Do not tackle this job if you have the least bit of question. Hire a pro, however an understanding of the process is necessary so you can check the boat over after the first fueling . The boat owner will also want to check the tank are over the first few weeks for possible leaks.

There is more than one way to clean up a contaminated fuel tank, however the best way to really remove debris and water out of the fuel tank, is to hire the services of a fuel scrubber. Have you ever seen a portable fuel scrubber machine? What the scrubber does is it pulls the contaminated fuel from the tank though one line, runs the contaminated fuel thru multiple filters, and returns clean fuel to the tank through a second line. By doing this it moves the fuel completely around the tank and cleans the tank and the fuel at the same time. This is a service that works on diesel or gas. Bad diesel will become a burnable fuel again and gas will clean up and by adding octane booster you burn off the cleaned gas.

If you know of, or can find the services of a fuel scrubber it is a good idea to have them service your vessel at least every two or three years (depending on the running hours) to clean the tank(s). Beware: Full scrubber services, if you have an older boat with a aluminium fuel tank (as the machine cycles the fuel) will remove corrosion and occasionally open small leaks in the  fuel tank. Be sure to have the company who sets up the scrubber, and provides the scrubbing service complete the removal of the sender unit at the fuel tank. The service technician should follow all the safety precautions I outline below and be the only person on the boat while the scrubber is hooked up.

The scrubber machine is portable and can be transported to the dock next to your boat. The machine will run for hours (the time that it needs to run is dictated by the volume and condition of the fuel) to complete the tank and fuel cleaning job.

 

So what if there is no scrubber available?

You will have to work with a manual vacuum pump and draw all the contaminated fuel out of the fuel tank to be disposed of in a responsible way (follow the local disposal laws). The way to do this is to remove the fuel sender from the fuel tank in question, and use this opening for your vacuum access. NOTE: ALL BOAT MANUFACTURERS ARE TO ALLOW AN ACCESS POINT FOR THE FUEL TANK SENDER Before you just undo the sender and remove it there are several steps you must take.

Make sure that there is no one on the boat before you start and keep the boat free of others until you are finished and tested.

1- Disconnect all the batteries on the boat

2- Make sure the shore power is disconnected at the dock

3- Make sure the area you are working in is well ventilated

4- Be sure you have the correct tool to undo the sender screws, the sender screws may require a clean up with a wire brush first as corrosion is not uncommon

5-Do not loose any of the sender screws and if you do or there are screws that are to corroded to reuse you must replace with the correct hardware. do not attempt to replace with any old screw as this is an area were you do not want leaks.

6-Have a correct replacement gasket for the sender on hand to reinstall.

7-When you remove the sender make a note on the direction the float arm faces

8-You must replace the sender facing exactly the same direction otherwise the fuel gauge will receive an unreliable signal.

9-If your are replacing the sender the measurements of the old sender are necessary for the gauge to work properly.

10-Once the sender is replaced and you add fuel be sure to make sure you have no leaks in the tank or the sender seat.

11- verify that you fuel gauge is working correctly

12- Anytime you open up the fuel tank you should mark your initials in the rub rail on the transom, this is a warning that the fuel system has been tampered with after the original install.

 Use only a manual vacuum pump do not use any power pumps or pumps that require a power source . The spark or heat created by any power source can ignite! The fumes from even bad gas are explosive! I recommend that you hire a professional to do this work as the risk of an accident is high.
 

When using the manual vacuum to remove all the fuel (you will need): To transport the fuel to a recycle location in certified gas cans for correct disposal at an authorized fuel recycle location. Once the fuel is removed you can take your time with the manual vacuum and remove as much debris from the tank as you can reach. Quite often there are two lengths of hose with the manual vacuum kit so you can reach along way into the tank. Once you have cleared out the fuel tank as much as possible you will need to reinstall the fuel sender. It is a must that the gasket on the sender be replaced. Boaters can buy these gaskets at your local marine parts store. (If the sender is corroded go ahead and replace it.)

Boaters will want to keep at least two spare filters on board after the cleaning fuel tank, as loose debris that you did not clean out will now be floating in the fuel. The filter will catch this debris and protect the motor. If you do not have an in line canister filter you will need to install one before you start to feed the motor with gas from the recently cleaned fuel tank.

After a self service fuel tank clean out you will also want to add fuel conditioner, not fuel stabilizer. The conditioner helps the motor burn raggedy fuel and suspends particles so the new fuel filter will collect it up without the debris getting to the motor
.

Please remember to keep an eye on the tank for the first few weeks after a cleaning to be sure that no weak spots in the fuel tank have opened up.

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SILVERTON 410 SPORT BRIDGE REVIEW / 2001 MODEL/ SO LITTLE RIGHT SO MUCH WRONG!

 

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2001 SILVERTON SPORT BRIDGE REVIEW

 

If I had to describe the Silverton 410 Sport Bridge in as few words as possible it would be gentle giant. An intimidating tall boat, with some major flaws right out of the box. The interesting thing about this boat is that it only makes sense once you are out on the water. any water the bigger the better this boat eats up bad weather. It can be a cold uncomfortable ride for the captain but man does this boat punch a hole in the water.

 

The design of this boat to be in motion at the dock its like driving from your second story balcony. If you can get past the height issue and turn the keys this boat has fantastic reaction. No bow thruster needed here. I had the pleasure of trying two Silverton 410 Sport Bridges one with gas and one a model year newer with diesel. The gas boat was great but the diesel was better.

 

The ride and performance are second to none. the fit and finish are as good as any Sea Ray. That's were the praise stops! This boat has some nice interior features which I will cover, but on a whole the boat has too many issues to be overlooked.

 

So lets do the flaws first and if you still like what you see we will cover the things that work on this model.

SIVERTON 410 SPORT BRIDGE 2001 

What Doesn't work:

 

First when tied up along side a rub rail height dock this boat is terrible to board. The sun pad area comes too far back over the deck side boarding area. THERE ARE NO SIDE STEPS TO EASE YOU DOWN TO THE COCKPIT FLOOR EITHER!

 

The way you must tie this boat up and hang fenders, well its so screwed up its not even funny. there are no cleats any were you need them except at the very bow and stern.

 

The Sun pad on the bridge is the biggest waste of space I have ever seen. There is no way to access and I think that Silverton made the cushion just to fill dead space.

 

The walk around deck has steps and once you get forward every thing moves downhill to the bow sprit. Riders will end up trying to sit on the side rails. The cup holders at the corners of the bow cushion are plastic and flush with the deck so they get stepped on and broken constantly.

 

The sliding glass door is to big and heavy and if you use your boat will require constant adjustment. Don't ever need to change the latch system that to is a problem to get.

 

They failed to put drains in the bottom of the arch pockets in 2001 but corrected this in 2002. So on the 2001 models water can freeze in the pocket and cause cracks (in a cold wet climate)

 

The bridge allows for seating for six, however every one will have to move if anyone needs to access the stairs to the cockpit and salon.

 

The factory canvas top and sides are ugly and has strange roll up side deck doors. If you just get the bimini top it looks so out of place.

Silverton did not include a door over the steep cockpit stairs. A door to prevent a fall in bad weather

 

The wet bar on the bridge is too small

 

The upper aft canvas encloser that closes in around the sun pad on the bridge is almost impossible to attach to the back wall of the bridge.

 

On the cockpit floor there is a storage area under a central hatch. There is a liner that fits inside the hole to make a storage bucket. The problem is the bucket is too wide and very heavy for one person to manage by the factory handles. Under this storage bucket is the biggest waste of space I have ever encountered on a boat ( but Silverton does provide a built in ladder to access your dungeon). Mold and Mildew love this area what a mess it becomes anything you put down there gets black.

 

If you do not have the automatic shore power cord system the boat will have a list to the port.

 

Every time you want to disconnect the shore power or water from the boat you have to reach inside the back transom door.

 

If you leave the sea cock open for the macerator discharge open by accident some how the holding tank fills with water while running.

 

And I could go on with small complaints but why bother I think the point has been made. A fantastic hull, And I mean it!  Way to many bugs for me to get past on the Silverton 410 Sport Bridge. At least the 2001 model.

 

I would like to review the brand new model to see how many changes have taken place.

What does work: The interior layout flows well. With a raised galley and eating area. Two piece head on one side and big shower on the other (with doors to access every room). A large V birth stateroom with washer dryer and smaller twin bunk room just down the hall.  The salon is large and tall ceilings make for a terrific entertaining area. There is just the right balance of wood and other high end materials to really pop.

 

The interior of the boat is quite nice with upgraded finishes every were, Mind you all the stars kind of remind me of the American Flag a little too much. 

 

I can tell you from experience this is a hard sell boat used, two things happen. One- the potential buyer is immediately intimidated by the height and helm location. Two- an experienced boater spots the short comings and walks away. I hate that a boat with construction on par or better than any Sea Ray would be such a disappointment!

 

*WOULD I BUY ONE*  Not a chance even though I believe this hull is incredible and the handling at any speed fantastic. There is no way I would own this boat. In bad conditions I would want one to get were I needed to go and have. I used a 410 Silverton Sport Bridge to plow a hole through really bad water to get a Four Winns 378 home in one piece. Alas No I wouldn't own one.

 

READ THE REVIEW BY  BOATING MAGAZINE FROM 2000 ON THIS BOAT, UNBELIEVABLE ITS A JOKE . THE ONLY LOWS WERE GLARE ON THE DASH, COCKPIT SIDE STEPS AND THE LATCH FOR THE BOARDING DOOR HAD OPENED ........that's IT!!!!

AUTHOR BW

Copyright 2015 © Boat Nut Media, Toronto, Ontario. All rights reserved. No part of this information/publications may be stored in a retrieval system, transmitted, or reproduced in any way, including but not limited to photocopy, magnetic, or other record, without prior agreement and written permission of the publisher, Boat Nuts Media ©™ No liability is assumed with respect to the information provided

Gas or Diesel? A Follow Up.

More detailed information on the boats in response to a readers questions 

 Diesel boat details are as follows:
1- Twin Cummins Diamond  Series Inboard 8400 with diesel generator
2-  Vessel weight 28495 lbs
3- 799 hrs

Boat had 1/2 Tank of fuel when departing, and was empty of all but safety gear, no water and pumped out.

Gas boat details
1-Twin 8.1  Crusader motors with gas generator
2-Vessel weight 27495 lbs
3- 65 hours

Boat had 1/2 tank of fuel when departing and was empty of all but safety gear, no water and pumped out

Both boats where side by side when they left and arrived the same way, this was a rare occasion where the two boats where ran side by side all the way. The gas boat set the pace at 4500 RPM.and the diesel matched the pace. The price per gallon of fuel was not critical to the discussion, as we were not trying to determine gallons per hour of fuel burn. It was a general note that the a diesels cruising range based on the same amount of fuel far exceeds gas, as the diesel burnt just about half of the gas boat period. These two boats are rigged with identical size single center mounted fuel tanks.

Water line difference question:

One of the questions was in regard to water line at the dock with no one on board it is obvious that there is a difference as the diesel boat weight is 1000 lbs more than the gas boat.

Does the diesel motor work as hard as the gas motor:

No diesel motors do not the gas motor develops a huge amount of torque when pulling through the RPM range yes, but does not maintain the torque  and hp at the prop any were near were a diesel motor does. Diesels love to be under a constant load.  All boats have hull speed limitations that are available, if you are hitting the max RPM well before the recognized hull speed then you may have the wrong prop package on the boat. That is not the case in this comparison.

What Does it mean when you say diesels are not affected by boat load as gas motors do:

This is in reference to the fact that many times on a boat this size you will add a tender on a bracket of one type or another and the fact is the diesel will not hardly be affected. A gas motor will feel the load difference. Every boat in Canada has a load capacity plate do you know where it is on your boat, if you ignore this plate load limit it will affect any boat with any power plant not just due to motor lag but the hull design can be affected which is a safety issue, so Know your load limit and stay within it. One of the ways to know the true boat weight is at the travel lift most boat owners do not ask the weight of the boat when hauled out.


These boats were brought up to RPM and left there for four hours, and the diesel did need a service, Had it have had the service the smoke may have been reduced however it would have burned cleaner and got better fuel burn. Not all diesels are smokey and smelly as many have under water exhaust this is why I stated that the exhaust set up on this particular boat is poor, but if you think that a diesel has no odor at an idle at the dock you are wrong. Out on the lake or in the open the exhaust can escape away, but against a dock in that trapped space they smell. You know when a diesel starts and is idling if it is backed into the dock which is the way 99 percent of the boats that I attend are moored.


This was a comparison done of two identical boats from the same manufacturer out of the same factory, all original no modifications, Boat Nut Media could get out of control with prop sizes and pitches and wet load weight, but that is not our goal. We try to provide information that is based on facts the way we see the boats and the way they run. This is the way the manufacturer delivered them and that is what boaters really have to deal with.

You can always break a boats running information down into a significant amount of detail, but at the end of the day the boat will do what it is going to do, and I tell it as I see it not every one will like it or agree with it.

Original response from one of our readers:

I only know what I have seen in diesel boats and what I have been involved with on discussion boards such as this.
This is one of the most common ways leading to people ruining their diesels.....
"The last benefit to a diesel is they do not seem to care what you load on your boat they seem to perform pretty much the same way with or without the tender and all your gear on board"
they load the boat heavily over time and overload the diesel engines.
And this way as well....
"This makes for a much smoother ride in the diesel as the running gear is larger you just do not feel like you are pushing the diesel hard at all."
They feel like the diesel are not working hard so they run them to fats and way to near their max rpm's when over propped.
"Both boats were ran side by side down the lake for four hours on plain. The gas boat burnt $400.00 worth of fuel and the diesel burned approximately half of that $220.00."
This tells us nothing about fuel burn rates as fuel prices are different in various places. around here the price of gas is typically 10-15% more than diesel fuel at marina docks. The 41 Silverton we cruise with typically gets about 0.5 nmpg at its cruise of 15-16 knots burning over 30 gph at those speeds.
"So the weight difference is mainly in the motors themselves. However we will say the gas boat sits approximately two inches higher than the diesel boat at the water line."
There is no way to know which diesels are in this boat but we know they do weigh more - even if they weigh a combined 1,000#'s more than the big block gas engines there is something really wrong with a 2" difference in hull height. As a comparison I can take on 400 Gallons of fuel and 200 gallons of water and that only affects my height be about 1" (about 4,500#'s). What 41" boat goes down 2" at the water line when 6 adults or so have boarded?
" At an idle at the dock the diesel can be dirty and smelly, as a matter of fact other boaters were not happy with long term idling"
We have commonly been on raft-up where more than half a dozen larger diesel gensets were running and there was no noticeable smell.
Similarly when the boats come in to tie up and the mains are running (various brands) there is very little noticeable smell.
I am guessing there are some other issues with each of these boats which may affect comparisons of individual differences. Engine condition, prop sizing, prop and running gear condition and boat loading all can make a very large difference. Running any side by side comparison is hard even wen you know the boats engines are well tuned and each boat is evenly loaded and in good shape.
Hope this helps

Thanks again for the comments they are great. Again I am not an expert but I would ask the following:they load the boat heavily over time and overload the diesel engines. Is this overloading only an issue with diesel owners or is this more of a problem of boater education ?They feel like the diesel are not working hard so they run them to fats and way to near their max rpm's when over propped. Same question as above. Does this really invalidate the comparison or is this more an issue of boater education ?
]This tells us nothing about fuel burn rates as fuel prices are different in various places. around here the price of gas is typically 10-15% more than diesel fuel at marina docks. The 41 Silverton we cruise with typically gets about 0.5 nmpg at its cruise of 15-16 knots burning over 30 gph at those speeds. Since the claimed fuel consumption is about 50% less to travel at the same speed and distance does it really matter what the cost of the fuel was. What if the test was done when the prices were exactly the same ?There is no way to know which diesels are in this boat but we know they do weigh more - even if they weigh a combined 1,000#'s more than the big block gas engines there is something really wrong with a 2" difference in hull height. As a comparison I can take on 400 Gallons of fuel and 200 gallons of water and that only affects my height be about 1" (about 4,500#'s). What 41" boat goes down 2" at the water line when 6 adults or so have boarded? A good observation and you are right more information would have been good. But the same question. Does this invalidate the comparison ?We have commonly been on raft-up where more than half a dozen larger diesel gensets were running and there was no noticeable smell.
Similarly when the boats come in to tie up and the mains are running (various brands) there is very little noticeable smell.
I am guessing there are some other issues with each of these boats which may affect comparisons of individual differences. Engine condition, prop sizing, prop and running gear condition and boat loading all can make a very large difference. Running any side by side comparison is hard even wen you know the boats engines are well tuned and each boat is evenly loaded and in good shape. I guess everyone has their own experience's in terms of the smell of diesel boats. But you make a very valid point that if they are not properly cared for the issue can be much worse.

We would like to thank our readers for their comments and questions, as this is exactly what we were hoping for. We wanted other boaters, technicians, and manufacturers to voice their opinions, and share their experiences. After all we are a boating community and should all have a voice in it. We are simply trying to bring the BOAT NUTS together.

To guarantee access to all of  Boat Nut Magazine articles, pictures and featured services visit the official Boat Nut Magazine ©™ website. Be sure to reply to the Boat Nut Association registration on our site for the latest Boat Nut weekly and monthly news letters and opportunities.

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Copyright 2015 © Boat Nut Media, Toronto, Ontario. All rights reserved. No part of this information/publications may be stored in a retrieval system, transmitted, or reproduced in any way, including but not limited to photocopy, magnetic, or other record, without prior agreement and written permission of the publisher, Boat Nuts Media ©™ No liability is assumed with respect to the information provided.

Gas or Diesel, whats the better fit for you?

                                                   

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Gas or Diesel the age old question when buying a yacht?

Identical 410's

Gas- Tan Canvas (Top) Diesel- Black Canvas (Bottom)



Boat Nut Media had a chance last fall to run identical 410 Silverton Sport Bridge Yachts one with twin big block gas motors and the other with a pair of cat diesels, so what were the differences? Does it make a difference when you are puttering along or cruising long distances, the answer is it does.

 The gas boat is powered with two big block 454 ci low hour motors, and is set up virtually identical to the diesel boat. The only difference is a washer dryer in the gas boat, which is countered in the diesel boat with an automatic shore power cord system, So the weight difference is mainly in the motors themselves. However we will say the gas boat sits approximately two inches higher than the diesel boat at the water line.

Both boats were ran side by side down the lake for four hours on plain. The gas boat burnt $400.00 worth of fuel and the diesel burned approximately half of that $220.00. The boats were evenly matched for speed as a matter of fact the diesel boat could out run the gas boat if you pushed the throttle down and let the boats go. Why is this ? Well the gas boats props are at least 3 inches smaller in diameter, and the shafts on the diesel are a half an inch larger. This makes for a much smoother ride in the diesel as the running gear is larger you just do not feel like you are pushing the diesel hard at all. The diesel motors run at least 1700 RPM less at high speed than the gas motors.

I must say the extra weight of the diesel motors make the ride very stable overall, boat movement is reduced. The gas boat has more transom lift this would be due to weight and the extended RPM range this 1700 RPM is translated into more water at higher speed passing the props thus creating more transom lift. Transom lift creates more roll from front to back in the gas boat than the diesel boat. The diesel boat just punches a big hole through the water it provides the same bow rise it just squats in the water at the aft. Thus creating a much larger wake out the back

When departing the dock the diesel has substantially more push and more positive low speed control by the shifter's, this is directly related to the size of the props. Idle speed is also much faster with the diesel for the same reason, there is a larger volume of water passing the diesel boats props. The gas boat is also very manageable as well, but the reaction time from shift to movement is much tamer and slower. The gas boat will require more corrections for side wind or current. The first time you shift the diesel you may feel a little intimidated as it moves right away and quick. Neither one of these boats are equipped with thrusters so all docking moves must be made with the motors. When docking the gas boats gives you more reaction time to prepare for movement which can be a real plus for first time boaters, however this can bite you if you have an off the dock wind or current. At an idle at the dock the diesel can be dirty and smelly, as a matter of fact other boaters were not happy with long term idling . This though was partly due to the diesel motors requiring a general service. Although even with optimum fuel burn a diesel is a smelly proposition backed into the dock. This becomes worse in a diesel if you have the generator running also. On this model boat running the generator would probably all but eliminate the ability of sitting in the back cockpit or keeping the large sliding door open. A real draw back while at anchor. The gas does not seem to have this same effect on the usage of the aft deck or cabin door.

When it comes to service these two boats are likely very close in maintenance costs, however if you had a starter or alternator go out the diesel, it would punch a hole in your wallet. Serious breakdowns will cost more with a diesel. Do not let this sway your decision making if a diesel receives regular run hours and correct maintenance then they will out last the gas motors two to one. The other upside to a diesel is there are less mechanical items to fail you there are no spark plugs no wires and no ignition system.

I believe that the choice between gas and diesel comes down to running hours and and what performance you are looking for in a larger boat. A gas boat is ideal if you are not putting on a lot of hours and not going far, in other words a floating cottage. If you had a diesel in these conditions it would cost you more to keep it running, diesels need to run they do not do well sitting around they are more difficult to get running if they do not see time then gas engines. If you are an avid traveler and cruise your boat all the time and like to go distances than buy a diesel the fuel burn rate will give you extended range and they love to run under load for days at a time. You have to take a look at how you are going to use the boat, access to fuel, the cost of fuel, can you get service on a reliable basis and how fast you want to get there, I must say a good diesel turbo set up will blow the doors of a gas boat the same size all day. The last benefit to a diesel is they do not seem to care what you load on your boat they seem to perform pretty much the same way with or without the tender and all your gear on board, where you will surely notice the difference with gas motors they just do not develop he same torque, and torque is push!

To guarantee access to all of  Boat Nut Magazine articles, pictures and featured services visit the official Boat Nut Magazine ©™ website. Be sure to reply to the Boat Nut Association registration on our site for the latest Boat Nut weekly and monthly news letters and opportunities.

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Copyright 2015 © Boat Nut Media, Toronto, Ontario. All rights reserved. No part of this information/publications may be stored in a retrieval system, transmitted, or reproduced in any way, including but not limited to photocopy, magnetic, or other record, without prior agreement and written permission of the publisher, Boat Nuts Media ©™ No liability is assumed with respect to the information provided.